Okay, bear with me, friends. I know you're probably thinking, "Great. Lessie leaves her husband and goes immediately off the deepend." But this post is in response to BiV's post and John's response.
I realize that analyzing something can change the thing somewhat, but stay with me for a minute. BiV and John were having fun with a cultural standard and the resulting rebellion against that standard. But as I got to thinking about it, I began to wonder what the response to either post would have been if it had been women dancing around in white shirts or posing in sexy black ones. So I'm interested in your thoughts. Does my being a woman change your response? Are women allowed the same playful license with their bodies yet, or are they still restricted to the realm of eye candy? Have I completely betrayed my sex? Or have I empowered myself (I have my own thoughts, but I'm interested in yours)? I'm interested also in discussions of how clothing styles and grooming standards differe between men and women and again, what they mean. Am I lucky because I get to wear makeup and expose more skin as a rule? Or am I playing into a patriarchal conspiracy?
Let me know your thoughts. And now, one final plea: be nice! I'm feeling very exposed (for obvious reasons and then add that to the fact that I still suck at photo placement).
28 comments:
Whoa Lessie! You just HAD to post this after my coming-out post, huh? Now I'm objectifying you all over the place. And it's totally not my fault because I'm just a woman, and I can't help how I respond. It's YOUR fault for dressing skimpily. If you covered yourself up, I wouldn't have to get turned on by you.
(eye roll)
It doesn't change my thinking that you're a woman, but to keep with the metaphor, you might have dressed in a frumpy Sunday-school dress in the first photo and then a sexy black pantsuit in the next. :)
I loved John's post. I don't really care what guys wear. Or women. Generally, if I don't like what a woman is wearing, it's because I'm jealous of her. That's probably not true for most women, but it is true for me. I have never been impressed by the way men dress at church. That sea of white is just boring, not attractive or "pure" or reminiscent of some meaningless religious bullshit. Give me a Man in Black any day (especially that one). (By which I mean Johnny, not John.) (Though John is also great.) (He's just not Johnny.) (Capische?)
I don't have any good answers for the rest of your questions. I am inclined to believe that dressing uncomfortably, performing painful actions upon our bodies and decorating ourselves in unnecessary ways are essentially pandering to the patriarchy. But I can't be the one to limit others' choices by saying that it's WRONG. I just feel distinctly uncomfortable with it, especially because, as I've shed most of those trappings, I've come to realize what purpose they held for me, a purpose that I didn't understand while I was enduring it.
When we were all hanging out downtown during Sunstone, I looked disparagingly at the little girls walking by in their little clothing. Part of it was my inevitable jealous response - I couldn't dress that way even if I wanted to, and no matter how hard I try I cannot overcome hatred of my body - but a lot of it was the feeling that I was observing some animalistic foreplay. Let me shove my colorful ass in your face so we can procreate and get on with our lives.
I believe empowerment comes from within. No amount of makeup or skimpy clothing can provide women with true peace and self-esteem. At best, these things can make us feel more confident and accepted with others. But probably not with ourselves. I definitely can't claim to have figured this one out at all.
LESSIE!!! I love it! I have to go right now and pick up kids but I mean it, I will come back and comment more seriously later.
For now, all I have to say is: black for women. Oh yeah.
I still find you sexier in black ;) Although my first thought was (honestly), "why is she wearing pants (with a black shirt)?" And then I had to really look at the black shirt one to figure out how it was open. Awesomeness!
I don't think my response is much different—I like black shirts more than white (although white blouse & jeans is also kinda sexy), but I will admit that I thought of the dichotomy when John put his pics up.
Okay, first of all, HUGE sigh of relief. I'm so glad you guys don't think I've totally lost it.
Chandelle, good point. But I've actually given all my frumpy dresses to DI :) Also, that white shirt, at least where I went to school, was a staple of a good Mormon girl's outfit. Especially if she sang in a choir or played in an orchestra--everyone was expected to have a white shirt and black skirt. I left my pants off because of the video on BiV's blog. God, I'm feeling exposed.
Also, Chandelle, we've talked about piercings and tatoos. Are you separating those from procedures like breast augmentation and liposuction? I'm curious.
BiV, thanks! I look forward to your response.
xJane, thanks for stopping by! Are you talking about the dichotomy between black and white or between men's and women's ways of dressing?
chandelle: I'm with you that the major question about the way women dress is "in what way is it for men". A friend of mine and I had a huge conversation about this recently—neither of us thinks of how it will make men look at our asses when we wear heels, yet that is the exact result. That probably means we're deeply entrenched in the patriarchy.
Self-loathing comes under that banner, too, I think. My thoughts about my weight and pants size are more effected by those of the people around me than anything else.
"Also, Chandelle, we've talked about piercings and tatoos. Are you separating those from procedures like breast augmentation and liposuction? I'm curious."
Good question. I guess I do put those in a different category. I know that some piercings and maybe tattoos are designed to be sexually stimulating or to send a message about one's body, but I really can't equate getting an eyebrow pierced or tattooing a nautical star on a bicep with creating bigger breasts or slimming thighs by surgery. By decoration I was primarily referring to makeup, which is designed to make one look "pretty" or to hide "flaws," which certainly seems to be pandering to the patriarchy because those flaws are fictional and makeup is non-essential to a woman's intrinsic beauty. There's also something to be said for convincing women that they are ugly and need all these products and surgeries, products and surgeries produced and distributed by companies owned by men and by predominantly male doctors. Piercings and tattoos might be unnecessary and even painful adornment, but I don't equate it with making bigger breasts because a woman has been convinced that hers are too small or too saggy, or having fat sucked out or a nose chopped off or anything of that nature. Piercings and tattoos seem to be much more personal and have little to do with anyone else, but I don't think it's possible for anyone to have breast augmentation surgery or liposuction without doing it for someone else. If nobody told us there was something wrong with us, it would never occur to us to perform these operations. Tattooing and piercing aren't corrections; they're adornments. We can certainly argue about the relative merit of them, but I don't believe they're equatable to cosmetic surgeries.
I'm working right now, and so can't go on at length. But for now, let me just say that I like black clothing in general a whole lot better than white clothing, on women and on men.
mrg. Time delay.
Lessie: I was talking about the man/woman, rather than the black/white.
I guess I can see the reasoning behind both black & white shirts. A white buttoned shirt makes me want to spill something on it (or jump the innocent inside it, just to see if he's really that innocent). However, a white shirt that's open (like in the vid) turns that on its head. An open white shirt says, "I was an innocent guy, but look at me now!", which I find to be an inherently sexy sentiment.
The black shirt on its own is inherently sexy (to me)—whether black button-down or black t (anyone else swoon at the beginning of Pushing Daisies' recap when the camera zoomed into the pie maker in his hot black t?—it says, "I've cast off the white shirt & lay no claim whatsoever to it." An open white shirt is the gateway shirt to the black shirt.
(cross-posted)
I also put "cosmetic surgery" (breast augmentation, weight or wrinkle reduction) in a separate category from "body modification" (tattoos & piercings).
The first is generally performed to conform to "traditional" standards of what a body should look like (women should have large breasts, no one should be "fat", older people should not have wrinkles). These may be done for personal reasons (I don't think my boobs are big enough) or for community reasons (my husband doesn't think my boobs are big enough), but they are still necessarily conforming to social standards (for good or ill).
The second is, as chandelle says, much more personal. My tattoos are in places that people don't generally see. My husband is kinda weirded out by them. And despite the gaining acceptance of tattoos, they're definitely not "traditional". (Although a part of me would love to get a traditional japanese tattoo—the one that covers the same bits of skin as a shirt.)
Chandelle and xJane, I think the differences you've outlined make sense. I have another question for Chandelle. Makeup is something I struggle with (you'd think it was a drug habit or something). I've liked makeup since I was four years old. However, now that I consider myself a feminist, I hesitate to wear it (the amount of makeup I wore in the black picture is not typical--more to show the difference, again, between what's expected of men v. women).
But. I was reading this article (have I told you about this chandelle?) about a trans-woman who was so happy to finally be allowed to wear makeup and pretty dresses without feeling like she was bucking societal norms. So my question is, is makeup, or the desire to make oneself pretty, something that both sexes experience but only women are allowed to really express? While makeup might certainly be a tool in the patriarchal control box, is the desire to decorate ourselves something that has also been co-opted by the patriarchy? I mean, is restricting the desire to decorate ourselves to women one of the (many) disadvantages that patriarchy has also had on men?
while I'm neither chandelle nor a big make-up wearer, I'd like to weigh in on this, if I may: the desire to look good is universal—my husband fairly preens in front of the mirror of a morning, especially when he's wearing a shirt he looks particularly good in. The "tool[s] in the patriarchal control box" are what is culturally considered to be "good looking".
Make up is (patriarchally) a female-normative device for looking good. This is regardless of the fact that it makes men look good, too. Similar to heels, I would say. That doesn't mean that wearing make up makes a woman a tool (in either sense) of or for the patriarchy. Especially if that woman is aware of it.
Maybe this is just me justifying the fact that I feel great in heels, but just because I know that skirts are a tool of the patriarchy doesn't make me stop wearing them. Nor, do I believe, should it. Knowledge is power and make up on a feminist is not a contradiction.
xJane, you're absolutely welcome to weigh in. Indeed, thanks for doing so. That's an interesting point about heels and skirts (neither of which I wear often, but occasionally . . . ) and makeup. I probably like it because it does help justify the enjoyment I get out of makeup :) But seriously, I think you've got a good point. Knowledge is power. I suppose what I'm thinking of are the feminists who would say, "well, you know [makeup, heals, skirts] are just furthering your objectification, so why wear it?" I can see their point to a small extent.
I'm constantly torn between a "this is what I like so everyone else leave me alone" attitude and a "there is something wrong with the way society perceives me so I need to buck the system" attitude.
Does that make sense?
absolutely it makes sense. I struggle with the same battle myself. Most days, I side with "fuck it, I like this, screw what anyone thinks". And sure, when I see a woman with a short skirt, I probably wonder where she falls on the feminist spectrum—so I should assume it applies to me, too :-p
I just dyed my hair. Why? Because "there is something wrong with the way society perceives me so I need to buck the system" ;)
(folks, i typed this throughout the work day and I totally apologize if it doesn't make an lick of sense)
I'm not even going to pretend that I can post with any great intelligence or insight- look at those that precede me here. Ha. I'm an idiot if I think I can compete with them. What i can do is answer with honesty.
Does my being a woman change your response? Yes. You look hot. Whether that's a conditioned response or not, I'm not able to say. Then again, the picture of the nude cyclist on my blog had a very powerful effect on me and he wasn't attempting to be sexy.
I also knew right away from the picture what you were aiming for in the post.
Are women allowed the same playful license with their bodies yet, or are they still restricted to the realm of eye candy? Yes. Just the simple fact that we are women, we are able to play with our bodies, if you not sure what i mean, think bikinis and mini skirts, super high heels and thigh high boots. Men are not able to play as much. In fact, men who try to be "playful" with their bodies are a joke to me. They instantly loose all credibility-Again, that might be another conditioned response or it may just be my personal preference.
Have I completely betrayed my sex? No. That's just foolishness. If you sell your soul and body to be seen as hot or sexy to everyone you meet, then yes, you have made yourself, and sometimes, by default, other beautiful women objects. (think of those awful shaving cream commercials and what they do) I suppose it's fine if you (the individual) want to be an object, (breast implants, nose job, liposuction) but keep in mind that it may have a negative effect on women as a whole. But then there's thousands of years where women were literally nothing more than property (objects to own) and it's damn near hardwired into us so it's hard to say how much of it we can blame on our current ways.
Or have I empowered myself (I have my own thoughts, but I'm interested in yours)?
You've empowered yourself if you believe you are doing it for yourself-If you feel attractive by adopting a particular style- because it suits your personality. You have not empowered yourself if you are are just following a particular style or trend that you see see other women doing-one that doesn't suit your personality.
Am I lucky because I get to wear makeup and expose more skin as a rule? Yes. This is my favorite part about being a woman.
Or am I playing into a patriarchal conspiracy? I don't care about patriarchy.
So here goes. I like being a woman. I can wear my hair up, down, to the side. I can pull it back or curl it for a dramtic, sexy look. I can wear a low cut top for sex appeal one day and the next day wear a suit for a more professional look.
I have so much freedom to dress how I want based on my mood. I can even manipulate my mood by what I wear. Some (Chandelle types) will say I'm doing it for the attention. Damn right I am. Does this work for all women? Prolly not.
I was blessed to be reasonably attractive woman and I've learned how to use it to my advantage. It's very possible that I am a victim of the patriarchy mentioned but I don't give a shit. Really, I don't. It's not worth the trouble to fight with it. So I will continue to look pretty for all the little boys and girls on the playground until I am too old to do so. I do it for me and I do it for the people that have to look at me.
If I sound totally shallow, I probably am but no more than anyone reading this.
Whoa..."Chandelle types"?
I'm hurt.
"I was reading this article (have I told you about this chandelle?) about a trans-woman who was so happy to finally be allowed to wear makeup and pretty dresses without feeling like she was bucking societal norms. So my question is, is makeup, or the desire to make oneself pretty, something that both sexes experience but only women are allowed to really express?"
Oh man...the trans thing makes the whole issue so confused, I don't even know where to begin. Have you seen "Trans-America?" That movie really made me think about how we define female and male in our culture. What does is mean that trans-women "feel like women inside," or vice versa? Why do trans-women often interpret their femininity in such external ways? Can you simply create female genitalia and take female hormones but dress and act exactly as you always have and still "be a woman"? The trans-woman in that movie was SO femmed-out - pink Clinique everywhere, long nails, perfect hair, mincing little walk, big ol' handbags...I remember thinking, God, if that's a woman, then I guess I'm not a woman.
To answer your other question, YES, I do believe it's a universal wish to make oneself "pretty." I'm not a history expert, but I seem to remember that makeup was a very standard thing for both sexes in Egypt, for example. If you look across the spectrum at animal behavior, it's more commonly the male who "dresses up," has more colorful plumage, etc. Again, I think this is something males have been conditioned out of, again, because it's a "gay thing," a presumed cause or symbol of homosexuality. Guys do, by and large, look fantastic in makeup. Many traditional female styles look great on men. I once dated a guy who regularly wore skirts. He was a tall, thin guy and he looked fantastic, way better than I ever did. And I think we've all seen men preen over their appearance and worry about pimples, receding hairlines and spare tires. This makes me wonder if, instead of eradicating fancy dress and makeup from women, we should instead try to spread the love to the menfolk. (Not me, though. Truly, I just look stupid in makeup and fancy clothes. It's not for everyone.)
Oh, and Chandelle, I wanted to mention that I totally get your gripe about the products marketed to women. Like we've talked about before, when I used to sell Mary Kay (hangs head in shame :) I felt awful selling it because I felt like I was asking women to feel insecure in their natural beauty. Oddly enough, my experience selling cosmetics taught me to see the inherent beauty in women and also be comfortable with myself sans makeup. I rarely see a woman that I think is unattractive. But I'm still a makeup hog. Put an Avon (or Mary Kay) catalog in front of me and I'm like a kid in a candy store.
I totally used to be a product whore...not so much with makeup, but with other stuff like hair and skin products. Now I generally just buy way too many different kinds of lip balm. Becoming a mother really changed my perception of my physical self and also made me a poorer person overall. :) But I still sometimes get caught in Whole Foods looking for something fantastic/expensive to vaporize my pores...
Lessie: Whoa! Not a reaction I expected to my post (you look great in both, by the way). I hate to intrude in the great discussion here--I think this is a great exercise in comparison of the constraints that men and women struggle with, and I don't have too much to add. Chandelle captured the complexity of the situation in her first comment.
My main thought is that when men are treated as sexual objects, it's an addition to the many accepted roles men can play in a society where they are already in power. Men are rarely *only* sexual objects. When women are sexually objectified, I think it reinforces existing, predominant ways of viewing women, and the more limited social roles they can perform.
That said, there's a difference when you step forward and consciously use society's objectification to further your own end. That reinforces the system, but may empower you individually. This is a Foucaultian argument, I think, that no one is without at least some measure of power and that even the "powerless" maximize their interests within and even taking advantage of their chains to further their interests, if possible. I guess what would be most awesome is if in the act of presenting oneself as a sexual object, one were able to do it in a way that transformed the system in a way that empowered women, like Mae West or Madonna.
Melanie said: Men are not able to play as much. In fact, men who try to be "playful" with their bodies are a joke to me. They instantly loose all credibility
I'm taking this as a throw down. :P I'm jealous of the range of personal expression that women have--colors, styles, types of clothing, etc. I'm glad that this barrier is slowly breaking for men, though I have mixed feelings about the marketing/consumption aspects of it. But I intend to play and twist and bend norms in whatever ways I can, if I can get over some of the comfort and self-esteem barriers. Which is why I really appreciate Chandelle's various comments, like "I once dated a guy who regularly wore skirts. He was a tall, thin guy and he looked fantastic."
I'm a big fan of Judith Butler, who argued that we aren't a gender, we perform gender and that our performance is constrained by our context. That said, we have a space in which we can interact with, stretch or tear a little at the boundaries set by society. That's the place I'd like to play, along with trans-women, and metrosexuals, many gays and other gender bending experimenters.
chandelle, it's my impression that you are repulsed by most if not all of the societal norms for beauty.
you mentioned it yourself in your first post.
i can't help but think that when you see a woman like me, who goes to the trouble of doing her hair and wearing $20 lipstick that you think i'm a big sucker cos I bought into society's expectation.
this isn't an attack on you. no way.
it's just a simple fact that you and I have different standards of (what makes us feel) pretty.
It is an attack.
I don't think this is about feeling pretty in different ways. When I see a beautiful woman like you wearing makeup, I simply wonder if you know how lovely you are and that makeup is unnecessary. It makes me sad that women wear makeup for this reason. But I've had many women tell me that they just find makeup fun and exciting, not that they're trying to correct flaws. I don't get this at all, but I can't say it's wrong or anything; I just have no experience with it. I think it's a rare woman who doesn't use makeup out of some sense of the need for compensation, however slight. Most of the women I know say they'd never even consider leaving the house without something on their faces. This doesn't seem to me like something "fun" or "exciting," but rather something essential to their feeling of normalcy and acceptability, and that makes me wonder, Why?
I can't claim to be more enlightened here. I haven't worn makeup for years, but it might simply be because I just don't have the face for it. I was thrilled to dump my church clothes because I just don't "do" dressed up. These are not the ways by which I feel sexy or confident. As I've said before, it's easy for me to have unshaved legs because I have such thin, light hair; I'd probably feel really different if my legs looked more like a man's. But most importantly is the fact that while I may have stripped some of these cultural trappings, it's completely external. I haven't replaced them with a sense of comfort and satisfaction with my body. I hate my body and face as much as most women. I just don't bother trying to fix it anymore. This isn't enlightenment. I'm not sure what it is, to be honest.
I am repulsed by many cultural standards of beauty. I'm repulsed that women must be very slim and tall while having large, high-placed, perky breasts (usually an impossible combination, both ways) to be considered beautiful. I'm repulsed that we're required to shave, pluck, wax and deform ourselves in various ways if we don't match cultural expectations, that our female self seems to be dependent on these actions, otherwise we're not quite women. I'm repulsed that if a man cheats on his female partner, it's often presumed that it's her fault - she wasn't pretty enough, she wasn't good enough in the sack, she'd let herself go. I'm repulsed that girls as young as 5 are being conditioned to hate their bodies while simultaneously believing that the only power they have lies in the use of those bodies. I'm repulsed that so many women won't be observed without makeup. I'm repulsed that a woman like you, Mel, who is luscious and curvaceous and powerful and strong, would talk about her ass in such disparaging ways, and everyone around you would think this is normal. You goddamn betcha I'm repulsed by societal norms of beauty. And I'm pissed off that because I think women are beautiful enough all on their own, and I wish more women would give themselves a chance, and I think we respond, as women, to cultural conditioning far more than we realize, I'm presumed to be judging individual women, like you, Mel, if you wear $20 lipstick. I don't give a shit if you wear $20 lipstick.
Okay, that sounded so angry. You know I love ya, Mel, and your feeling that I judge you, you know that's just your own insecurities talking, right? You know I worship the ground you walk on, woman!
Lessie, I hope you are comfortable having no life so you can sit around keeping up with all the comments buzzing through from this little SNAFU you concocted. :D
And after reading all of this I was just wondering why you felt the need to wear panties...
I DID NOT JUST SAY THAT...I'm kidding, of course.
But I sure didn't expect to see so much of you, (smile) and I'm really impressed that you had the courage to do these pics.
I used to do the makeup/hair/nails/clothes thing, then I became a granola. The urge to return to fashion hits me now and then but I can't do anything about it due to my physical condition.
It's such a small world, some of the small (relatively unknown) sites I visit are visited by some of these fine commenters, too! Whoda thunkit.
Chandelle, I have a life :) It just wouldn't look like it to anyone walking by . . . :P I edit obits, for the love of fettuccine alfredo, what could be more exciting than that?
JohnR, I'm curious about your references to Mae West and Madonna. How do you think they've managed to simultaneously objectify and empower themselves? Also, to you and chandelle, I think the gender benders in our society are incredible! I think these discussions of gender performance are vital to making people feel more comfortable with their bodies and their personal style of self expression.
One more thing, JohnR. I was talking with a friend offline and I think it's interesting the different responses our posts got. I'm not sure how much of that is due to the text of the post and how much of that is due to the pics. Does that make sense? I think most people saw your post and thought, "Ha! That John, he's so funny."
Again, that could be due to the facetious nature of your post, but the response here has been different. I'll admit I was expecting the differences, but then, that was what I was trying to get at to begin with.
Ima! I totally noticed your comment. I'm sorry for not acknowledging you earlier. Thanks for stopping by! I love reading your comments on MoF.
Nemesis, it felt like courage this morning when I was taking the pics and writing the post. By mid-morning, it was feeling more like insanity :) Whom else do you know here?! That would be cool to know that we already have mutual blog friends!
chandelle: I feel you on the totally femmed-out look. I'm weirded out by men and women who adopt that look.
And I had a random thought while walking through Santa Monica last night—a herd of well-sculpted gay men bounded by and I was struck by the thought that gay men generally care more for their appearance than het men. At the time I thought it might be because, being turned on by men, they knew better what attracted men. But now I wonder if it's because it's more culturally acceptable for gay men to be concerned about their looks—that's it's a natural state for men, but only gay men are "allowed" to show it.
JohnR: I have to think about this objectification thing. I don't have anything against objectification per se, just about the automatic objectification of women. I enjoy the occasional objectification of either gender (ask John about when he sent me the page of pics of him in just a shirt—I did some objectification right then!)...it's a tough call.
I'm a kind of plain Jane no-makeup kind of girl, but I love it when my female friends dress up and look pretty. It makes me happy to know that they feel beautiful--they all have such gorgeous healthy bodies and they know how to wear clothes well.
My simplicity of dress stems from wanting to be very comfortable all the time. I love worn-in clothes that are free of a lot of fussiness.
Occasionally I will purchase a makeup or a skincare item, but I prefer not to bother about such things (I say this, just days after I painted my toenails bright red). I've chosen not to dye my hair or have a fussy 'do, because that's what pleases me. But I don't begrudge others their choices--even when they are different from mine.
Hey, but I do love men in eyeliner and skirts. A bit of gender-bending is pretty attractive, IMO.
my response :)
* Sigh * okay xJane. I'm going to have to give in and get a flickr account. I couldn't see your pics without a password. That will give me something to do today when I should be working :) And thanks again for the solidarity ;)
Jana! Thanks for your comment! As I've already mentioned, I'm nuts about makeup. But I very rarely wear the amount shown in the black pic. And in general, my look is much more casual. I wore a black blazer and button up shirt to work yesterday and my coworker thought I was interviewing somewhere else. I usually just wear jeans and a nice shirt. It's funny because reading your posts about Quaker ideas of simplicity is actually part of what has made me tone down my look. As for my hair, I don't dye it either. While I struggle with my curls, I'm fine with the color. It's served me well up to this point :)
To everyone, in general, I really do like bodies. I like all kinds of body types. My own body type makes me uncomfortable because so much is expected from it in society and I worry that I'm inadvertently reinforcing harmful norms. I cannot tell you how much I enjoy seeing women with different body types going out on a limb and wearing things that challenge our perceptions and expectations of what they "should" wear. While I realize it's a tricky issue, I think that if more women of different body types exposed a little more skin, we could eventually normalize beauty in all different shapes and sizes (and I hope that came out right, I don't want to make anyone think they "should" dress any one way).
Not knowing you, I definitely feel I'm intruding. Personally I wear lots of black and that's not necessarily my pick for you. But the picture of you in black is hot, hot, hot. But its not the shirt, open or not, its your eyes, sister. You better keep the glasses cause otherwise you're going to melt a lot people with a glance.
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